What follows are the bulletpoints from the video posted above.
Here are some facts to consider when we think about whether prophecy, tongues, and other miraculous gifts have existed since the apostolic age.
Before I begin, one thing I should mention that I didn't include in the video - 'cessationism' - or the idea that the miraculous gifts ceased after the apostolic age - was the accepted position of the Church from after the apostles until the present day pentecostal movement, which began around 1900. Though that doesn't mean it's true - that does say that there should definitely be no arrogance towards the position.
That said - the facts:
0) Scripture doesn't say that gifts have or haven't ceased.
1) The office of apostle has ceased.
2) Scripture is sufficient to provide us all the information we need to live the Christian life.
3) Jesus taught that after his era, many gifts would disappear (John 9).
4) New Testament prophets are different from Old Testament prophets.
5) 'Prophet' can mean someone who receives direct revelation from God OR someone who interprets it.
6) Prophets in the New Testament Church were subjected to the Church, and the Church to Scripture.
7) There were signs of the apostles; and thus the 'signs of the apostles' have ceased. (2 Cor. 12)
8) Scripture gives us strict rules about how to use these gifts.
9) We must interpret experience by Scripture - not Scripture by experience.
Thanks for the post. A friend and I have been talking about this subject, although the nature of the conversation has been different than your post (that being that we both affirm the gifts for today, we’re just discussing the nature and use of the gifts, as well as growing in desiring and practicing the gifts).
ReplyDeleteThoughts and questions:
Do you make a distinction between the office of Apostle (a.k.a. Scripture writers) vs. the office of apostle (gift to the church to provide governing and direction)?
If Scripture does not say that the gifts have ceased, what makes you consider that they have ceased?
You didn’t talk any about the “non spectacular” gifts (which I hate that description; if you have a better one, I’ll take), such as leadership, serving, teaching, etc. Would you differentiate between the “spectacular” and the “non spectacular”?
You seem to conclude that the gifts could be for today, and if so then Scripture governs the use of them and Scripture interprets them, but then you’re not sure if the gifts are really for today. Is this correct? If so, I don’t think you should rest there. Paul’s instruction on how to use these gifts includes the charge to desire them (1 Cor. 14). So, if they are for today, then we (you) ought to desire them (for our own edification, the good of the body, and the glory of God).
Much love brother!
- Jace H.
I should clarify - I'm functionally in the pastoral sense a continuationist - but I do like giving honor to the great forefathers that were cessationists - and really don't like the fact that they're being so quickly shrugged off. That said - response:
ReplyDeleteI would say Scripture does have a distinction between Apostles (sent by Jesus) and 'apostles' (sent by the churches/bearing authority/etc.) - however, pastorally, that distinction, I think, is extremely unhelpful and confusing - we don't speak Greek. If someone wants to embrace episcopal church government, that's fine, but I think we should use terms that distinguish between the Scripture writers and superoverseers.
Scripture does say some of the gifts have ceased. It's the extent of that cessation that we're talking about and trying to figure out.
I agree - I don't like 'non-spectacular' - I'd go with the classic term 'non-sign' gifts. Scripture is clear that some gifts are to signify the apostles, just as Christ's miracles were signs of the physical nature of the Kingdom at that time - when Christ was physically here.
I agree on the desiring - and there're two levels to take this - one is theologically, which I'm clearly not sure on (though I kind of like the 'mobile pentecost' theory.) But pastorally, if Grudem is correct about prophecy, for instance, then it changes nothing in practice. If you think you ought to say something, say it, and it has to be under the authority of the church. If he's right about prophecy, it changes nothing. And if we agree that the sign gifts are still around, we have to define them. Personally, I do tend to the position that they are, but like Piper, in different forms. Maybe a better way to say that would be that 'prophecy' is a category which covers a decently wide range of Spirit-empowered activity.
As far as Corinth goes, I agree - but we need to let that passage apply to the Corinthians and then adjust the application to where we are in redemptive history. Continuationist or not - we are in a different stage, sans apostles.
Thanks for the comments, thoughts, and beginning to a thought-provoking discussion!
-d
hey derek,
ReplyDeleteCould you give me a bit more explanation on where in scripture it says that some gifts have ceased. I looked in John 9, and Jesus only speaks at the beginning and at the end. I think maybe you're talking about John 9:4-5, but I'm uncertain.
Thanks!
And if you could, consider this my response to your facebook message.
I'm listening.
-chris burton
Chris, great questions.
ReplyDelete1) Yes, John 9:3-5. The works of what Jesus speaks in context are miracles.
2) The office of Apostle - one sent by the risen Christ - has ceased in the sense that there are no longer people being directly sent by the risen Lord.
3) There are signs particular to the ministry of the Apostles (2 Cor. 12:12)